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Memory Alpha talk:Content policy/Canon policy archive
For older discussions, please see the Archive. Star Trek XI and canon...we need to get ahead of the curve :Moved from Memory Alpha talk:Policies and guidelines The new film is going to open up a whole brand new can of storming controversy, I fear. Despite constant statements of "we're following what was laid down" and "respect for what's been done before", if you read the interviews and press materials closely enough, then you'd see that at MOST they are talking about TOS (and MAYBE TAS) when they refer to the canon they respect. The mood at CBS/Para is "back to basics", and that will have PROFOUND implications for MA. Will we have to disregard TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT and remove them from our articles? Or will we start a whole new set of "Second Universe" articles to cover the JJAdams and after canon? Decisions need to be made NOW so that we can be ready when the movie hits.Capt Christopher Donovan 04:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC) :Well, I think we already made that decision, years ago. When two facts are contradictory, we're using both equally, and eventually make note of the contradiction in a background section. We're doing that even now, and I don't see the need to get nervous now about something that might not even be that big of a contradiction in December 2008... -- Cid Highwind 11:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC) ::In addition, remember that one of the writers is a die-hard fan of TNG (the other prefers TOS), while Abrams is a huge fan of both TOS and TNG and has stated that he owns the DVDs to all the series (including DS9, VOY, and ENT). Plus, the writers themselves may have been doing their own research into canon, utilizing Memory Alpha itself (see Talk:Star Trek (film)). And, although you may interpret that they are only speaking about TOS canon, I think they're intelligent enough to know that, when the say canon, they mean the whole kit-and-kaboodle. I also think they're smart enough not to do anything that would turn countless Trek fans against them. So, yeah, like Cid said, no need to get all jittery about it. Stand down from red alert, Captain. ;) ::Also, this may have been better placed at Memory Alpha talk:Canon policy. Eh... oh, well. :P --From Andoria with Love 12:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC) :::Besides, they have claimed they use MA for researching the movie, which means they will actually read this, gasp! ;-) --Jörg 12:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC) ::::Kinda dangerous to get ahead of a curve whose shape you can't even see yet. I can't imagine that a single movie, reportedly designed to fill in a very specific gap in the timeline, will be able to definitively erase the post-TOS Trek universe. There's just not enough time in an hour and a half to do that. (Well, not if the primary intent of the film is to tell a good story that will bring first-time viewers into the cinemas). So I really wouldn't worry just yet. CzechOut ☎ | 15:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC) Which becomes canon? Hypothetical query - if something in the 2009 movie very obviously contradicts what we saw in TOS (say, oh...the look of the NCC-1701, which at least in the teaser appears different), which would Memory Alpha consider canon? Which becomes in-universe 'fact', as it were, according to this site? --Mada101 00:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC) :Same as we treat current contradictions. Note both and leave it at that. We'll deal with that when it arises (since the trailers and teasers are not canon :) ) -- Sulfur 00:44, 12 March 2008 (UTC) Pathways and Mosaic Novels Should Be Canon I understand all novels are considered non-canon on MA, but I think this is a mistake with regards to Pathways and Mosaic by Jeri Taylor. Consider this. She co-created ''Voyager and its characters. Therefore these are her characters. Therefore is she or another co-creator not the best person to write about them and their early histories before joining the ship's crew? Since they are hers, what she says about their early histories should be considered canon, don't you think? This isn't some writer who decided to write a Voyager novel about the characters; this is one of the creators of the characters themselves. If Gene Roddenberry had penned such a novel about the TOS characters, I certainly do not think that would have been considered non-canon. I further quote from MA's Background Information section of the MA article on these books: Pathways was considered canon by the writers and producers of Star Trek: Voyager following its publication. Many of its plot details made their way into episodes. However, like "Mosaic", it has been superseded in some cases by events in later seasons. Mosaic was considered canon by the writers and producers of Star Trek: Voyager following its publication. Many of its plot details made their way into episodes. However, like "Pathways", it has been superseded in some cases by events in later seasons Of course, what is seen onscreen is to be considered canon above all else, but for events in the characters' early histories that the show says nothing about, I think (as MA's articles clearly support) that these books a should be considered a canon resource–the only, and I stress that word–''ONLY'' such books. Just something to think about. – [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 20:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC) :No detailed response at this time... other than to note that Roddenberry penned the novel for the Motion Picture. And he never stated that he considered it canon. He always stated "only what's on screen... other than the Animated Series" :) -- Sulfur 21:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC) ::Star Trek is not about what is in books, it is about what is on the screen. There are many books written by production staff and actors which are not considered canon.(Roddenberry, Shimerman, and Andrew Robinson). There are even books which were considered canon at one time but are no longer. Star Fleet Technical Manual) The same could happen in the future with Okuda's reference books, despite them being used by the writers of TNG-on. I would oppose letting these books be considered canon. If someone really wanted to, MA already has Background sections where information from these books could be added.--31dot 21:37, 14 January 2008 (UTC) Is the film canon — now? I started a discussion at Memory Alpha talk:Spoiler policy#Dealing with film spoilers about dealing with spoilers from film pre-publicity (the trailer, interviews with film personnel, spoiler reports and so on). In that discussion, it was suggested that the film is not canon until its release. I can see that argument, but there's nothing in the canon policy that states this explicitly. (I proposed a counter-argument that the film is canon before its release, but as its contents are not yet known for certain it exists in a state of quantum flux... well, it made sense at the time.) I guess I'm doing three things here. One is pointing readers of this page towards the discussion on the spoiler policy talk page. The second is asking whether people agree that the film is not canon until it is released, or whether it can be considered "canon but not known". The third, which is dependent on the answer given to the second, is asking whether something should be added to the canon policy, clarifying the status of material not yet released. —Josiah Rowe 06:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC) :I don't see what part of... ::Valid resources ::The following are valid resources from the episodes and movies and may be referenced in Trek universe articles as citations, in descending order of precedence: ::#Spoken dialogue (what is said) ::#Visual material (what is seen) ::#Aural material (what is heard that is not dialogue) ::Visual material can be supplemented by clearer visual images of the identical material seen (for example, production art identifiable as being the same as shown on screen in an episode but more legible than what is shown on screen) if the clearer image is a freeze frame from the episode, contained in an authorized publication, or otherwise generally and publicly available from a verifiable production source. :...this is unclear - since the movie hasn't aired none of that information could be see/heard. Since the Trailer isn't the movie it doesn't count...let's also keep the discussion where you started it - or where it belongs - let's not move it around. — Morder 06:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC) ::(Edit conflict) This seems to basically be the same conversation in the page you linked. At least, it certainly seems like you're looking for the same answers. Please keep discussions on one page; it makes things much more easier. Having said that, no, a movie is not canon until its released, because no canon has actually been released. As stated in our spoiler policy, we contain spoilers on in-universe articles from released material only. If it's not released, then there's no in-universe information to add. Anyway, since I can tell already that this discussion is going to go the same route as the one you linked, I would advise just keeping the discussion there. :/ --From Andoria with Love 06:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC) Fair enough. I only came here because TribbleFurSuit suggested that it might be a more appropriate venue. And for what it's worth, I don't see anything in the policy as it stands now that explicitly says "released material only" — there's a bit about "material intentionally not in episodes", but that's not quite the same thing as a film that's completed but not yet released. I don't mean to push the point, though. —Josiah Rowe 07:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC) :::FWIW, I think this point is moot, anyway... Our "Canon policy" is just one of several policies that govern what material we accept, and what we don't. Even if we considered the content of an unknown film "canon" (whatever that would mean, really) - we still shouldn't add that "canon" material to an article if another policy has a problem with that. :) -- Cid Highwind 10:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC) "Countdown" exception Should "Countdown" be included in the "canon resource" section despite it's not being a filmed depiction? The associated materials with the comic declare it the "Official Movie Prequel". The story comes from the screenwriters. Also, it is listed on the backblurb "JJ Abrams, Roberto Orci, Alex Kurtzman (and the 'scriptwriters for the comic} present the origin of Nero..." I've listed this as a question on the "Ask JJ" section which would give us a definitive answer, but all available evidence says "Countdown", unlike other comics, IS canon.Capt Christopher Donovan 13:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC) :I present, as evidence Pathways and Mosaic. I'd say... no. -- sulfur 13:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC) ::I'd also ask how many novels are written by writers of episodes? I'd have to say 'no' as well. — Morder 16:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC) :::I would also say no. I think that Abrams has said that it is not neccesary to read the comic in order to understand the movie, which would suggest that he doesn't think its canon.--31dot 17:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC) ::::I agree with the above, and would like to add the following for consideration: If we allow each new producer to define what we will need to consider "canon" or "non-canon", we potentially have much rewriting to do each time a new producer comes aboard. In fact, it seems as if Abrams view of the Trek universe doesn't contain everything that is considered canon right now. In this regard, it might be a good thing that we already have a policy for "valid resources" instead of "canon vs. non-canon". I'd say, let MB handle that comic, while we handle the film. -- Cid Highwind 20:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC) "Isn't necessary to read" does not = "isn't canon", IMO. He's just saying that you don't HAVE to read it, not that he does or doesn't consider it "what really happened" prior to the film. If Abrams is the new "creative force" behind Trek, as is the case here, then hasn't he become the new "keeper of the canon" as primary creator? Paramount, by signing off on it (by producing it) would be considered to have given it's tacit approval to his decisions in the matter.Capt Christopher Donovan 21:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC) ::Paramount is the only decider of canon. (especially with the recent addition of TAS to it - thought we had an exception because of our what was seen on screen is canon) Adding an exception to one print comic is a slippery slope with regards to people asking "why not this one" or "why is this novelization not canon". We have novelizations of films that aren't canon that contain a lot of information not seen on screen. They're official novelizations. Even if J.J. does say "it's canon" - he's not paramount and only to him is it canon. There might be a new director for the next movie there could be a change in writers, lots of stuff can change...so I still have to say 'no'. We have an Apocrypha section for stuff that is deemed important (though i think we should remove it - who gets to decide what's important enough to list here - and have links to MB as we do everywhere). Anyway - this is what MB is for. — Morder 21:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Confusion! Abrams has stated that Star Trek happens right before the five year mission. So the ship design goes against canon! What will happen to all the new non-canon facts on MA? The facts are in a different universe now. Just like the non-canon Mirror Universe. -- 16:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC) :See here: Forum:Has there been a decision on how to handle JJ Adams' Trek vis a vis articles? (slight spoiler inside) -- sulfur 16:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC) ::Also, the Mirror Universe is not non-canon. -OuroborosCobra talk 00:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)